PDC Women's Series & Slam Qualifier (16-18 Oct)

[Fiss Plaps]

Very small BBC write-up about Fallon missing out (and not Lisa or Deta qualifying ): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/darts/54593749

[Rogg]

Fallon's tour average was 87.84 (23 games).

Ashton was the only other player to break 80.

Sadly says a lot about the women's game. Would they improve overall if they played with the men? I doubt it.

I fear that most of them would just carry on flapping about in the same way while winning fewer legs.

[Randall]

Very small BBC write-up about Fallon missing out (and not Lisa or Deta qualifying ): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/darts/54593749

After the hullabaloo last year not surprising

[cannibal]

Fallon's tour average was 87.84 (23 games).

Ashton was the only other player to break 80.

Sadly says a lot about the women's game. Would they improve overall if they played with the men? I doubt it.

I fear that most of them would just carry on flapping about in the same way while winning fewer legs.

Honestly it isn't about the women improving. It is about finding that one women who can create an upset. let's be honest the PDC have approached this whole womens thing as a gimmick. Its value wont be longed lived. The regular appearance and beating they will take will get old. And the PDC approach is destined to provide this outcome just look at the quality or lack thereof in the qualifiers.

A women who can compete at the PDC pro level consistently and qualify on merit is of far greater value to the sport than a one off who wins a match or two in an event they got shoe horned into. When we see a few ladies come over from other top end womens sports I think that we might find a women or two who could develop into a player who could compete with the men consistently.

[The Thorn]

Fallon's tour average was 87.84 (23 games).

Ashton was the only other player to break 80.

Sadly says a lot about the women's game. Would they improve overall if they played with the men? I doubt it.

This is not something that will happen overnight. People usually expect quick result. The standard of the women's game was hindered for long years playing in the BDO. Granted, they were better off financially then they would have been in men's comps, but that's just no way to improve. I suspect if they keep trying in the PDC, at least some of them will improve their games. But nothing is a certainty. You could argue it already happened to Ashton and Sherrock to some effect? You are asking for a small group of CT or lower standard players to catch up to the main tour. Even the PDC's best efforts might come up short. The next generation of players (e.g Greaves) will probably have a better chance.

And even then, there's the question whether women can actually succeed at the highest level at all. Are there differences between the sexes? I don't think we have a definitive answer, but I strongly believe men have some form of advantage when it comes to darts.

[Potter's Lake]

And even then, there's the question whether women can actually succeed at the highest level at all. Are there differences between the sexes? I don't think we have a definitive answer, but I strongly believe men have some form of advantage when it comes to darts.

This was Steve Davis talking about snooker, but it works for darts too.

Davis thinks women lack "that single minded determination in something that must be said is a complete waste of time - trying to put snooker balls into pockets with a pointed stick.

"Men are ideally suited to doing something as absolutely irrelevant in life as that," he said. "They're the ones who have train sets in the loft. They have stamp collections to die for. Right? These are stupid things to do with your life. As is trying to practise eight hours a day to get to World Championship level.

"So therefore I think we are also the idiots of the species as well. The male of the species has got a single-minded, obsessional type of brain that I don't think so many females have."

[oche balboa]

The Ladies stats

- Best leg 12 darter (Fallon Sherrock 2, Lisa Ashton 3, Deta Hedman)
- Worst leg 49 darter (Carla Boyes vs Chloe McKevitt, Finished on D1)

Highest outshots

170- Lisa Ashton vs Fallon Sherrock
158- Anastasia Dobromyslova vs Lerena Rietbergen

Highest tournament Average

89.84- Fallon Sherrock

Lowest Tournament Average

38.11- Lainey Webb


180s (195 overall)- 45 players hit at least 1

Sherrock 25
Ashton 19
Hammond 17

Highest match average

95.43- Fallon Sherrock

Lowest Match Average

34.56- Lainey Webb


14 times there was a 90 average between 4 players

7- Fallon Sherrock
4- Lisa Ashton
2- Deta Hedman
1- Corrine Hammond

Overall Average: 63.11

[SuperSwede]

Fallon's tour average was 87.84 (23 games).

Ashton was the only other player to break 80.

Sadly says a lot about the women's game. Would they improve overall if they played with the men? I doubt it.

This is not something that will happen overnight. People usually expect quick result. The standard of the women's game was hindered for long years playing in the BDO. Granted, they were better off financially then they would have been in men's comps, but that's just no way to improve. I suspect if they keep trying in the PDC, at least some of them will improve their games. But nothing is a certainty. You could argue it already happened to Ashton and Sherrock to some effect? You are asking for a small group of CT or lower standard players to catch up to the main tour. Even the PDC's best efforts might come up short. The next generation of players (e.g Greaves) will probably have a better chance.

And even then, there's the question whether women can actually succeed at the highest level at all. Are there differences between the sexes? I don't think we have a definitive answer, but I strongly believe men have some form of advantage when it comes to darts.

+ you have to consider they were coming into this off he back of months without any competitive action at all

and there have been studies done, men definitely have an advantage over women when it comes to all throwing actions

[The Thorn]

Fallon's tour average was 87.84 (23 games).

Ashton was the only other player to break 80.

Sadly says a lot about the women's game. Would they improve overall if they played with the men? I doubt it.

This is not something that will happen overnight. People usually expect quick result. The standard of the women's game was hindered for long years playing in the BDO. Granted, they were better off financially then they would have been in men's comps, but that's just no way to improve. I suspect if they keep trying in the PDC, at least some of them will improve their games. But nothing is a certainty. You could argue it already happened to Ashton and Sherrock to some effect? You are asking for a small group of CT or lower standard players to catch up to the main tour. Even the PDC's best efforts might come up short. The next generation of players (e.g Greaves) will probably have a better chance.

And even then, there's the question whether women can actually succeed at the highest level at all. Are there differences between the sexes? I don't think we have a definitive answer, but I strongly believe men have some form of advantage when it comes to darts.

+ you have to consider they were coming into this off he back of months without any competitive action at all

and there have been studies done, men definitely have an advantage over women when it comes to all throwing actions

Yep, I always suspected this was the case. Do you know of any studies specifically about darts? I thought the research wasn't conclusive on this but then again I haven't read much of it admittedly.

[SuperSwede]

Fallon's tour average was 87.84 (23 games).

Ashton was the only other player to break 80.

Sadly says a lot about the women's game. Would they improve overall if they played with the men? I doubt it.

This is not something that will happen overnight. People usually expect quick result. The standard of the women's game was hindered for long years playing in the BDO. Granted, they were better off financially then they would have been in men's comps, but that's just no way to improve. I suspect if they keep trying in the PDC, at least some of them will improve their games. But nothing is a certainty. You could argue it already happened to Ashton and Sherrock to some effect? You are asking for a small group of CT or lower standard players to catch up to the main tour. Even the PDC's best efforts might come up short. The next generation of players (e.g Greaves) will probably have a better chance.

And even then, there's the question whether women can actually succeed at the highest level at all. Are there differences between the sexes? I don't think we have a definitive answer, but I strongly believe men have some form of advantage when it comes to darts.

+ you have to consider they were coming into this off he back of months without any competitive action at all

and there have been studies done, men definitely have an advantage over women when it comes to all throwing actions

Yep, I always suspected this was the case. Do you know of any studies specifically about darts? I thought the research wasn't conclusive on this but then again I haven't read much of it admittedly.

I can't remember which or where they were but was most likely off the back of references by Linda Duffy who's quite vocal about the women's game.

[Tommo]

Women can't concentrate, no matter what they are doing there's always a part of their brain that's thinking about shoes.

[cannibal]

Stupidswede is correct there are studies on this phenomena termed the throwing gap. The difference between men and women in throwing sports is well documented and excepted. A similar gap exists in sports requiring striking a ball e.g racquet sports etc. There are a few studies on dart throwing specifically. Duffy has one or two published.

The question on why the gap exists is the debate. Basically is it physical or sociological causes.

Google throwing gap you will find plenty of info on it. Duffy paper is out there i read it a few years ago when i was going through cursory reading of academic papers on this topic

[cannibal]

This article gives a brief synopsis of Duffys thinking about women in the PDC idea based on how she understands the "Throwing Gap". I pretty much agree with her on the approach but I disagree on what the goal should be for the PDC. Duffy I think wants to see a women's tour raising the standard of women by providing better opportunities etc..She wants a larger approach to improve the womens game across a broader set of women. I believe this is the role of the WDF and the PDC should contribute and support the WDF to do just that.

https://sportsgazette.co.uk/its-a-publi ... mpionship/

I otoh think the PDC primary goal should be finding the best one or two women who have the ability to compete at the top level. I believe the best sorting mechanism is to have the best women playing in the PDC tours development, challenge and the Pro. So by ranking they earn their way into events and hopefully have proven they have the ability to at least be competitive. I believe there will only be one or two maybe three women at any given time that will be able to obtain a card and only one of those will be competitive and qualify for PDC events.

Think about it if a dozen women were competing and winning at the Pro Tour level, it wouldn't be to special and the novelty is gone. And I'm not convinced that male dart fans would be really interesting in watching women, they really don't watch other womens sports so not convinced darts would be any different. The draw for women to watch won't be significant as women are actually already a significant group according to past interviews with Hearn and Porter. Otoh if one woman can occasionally do what Fallon did then the novelty has a longer life as it isn't the norm. But if women continue to fail every year at Ally Pally or GSOD, it just becomes the norm and fans are like oh no another women playing a man here comes the hiding. The PDC current approach is solidifying just this if they continue on in the long term.

[The Thorn]

Cannibal, your comment and that article should be compulsory reading for many people (including some on here) that talk shit without any evidence.

I totally agree with you. Even if the PDC ends up creating a women's tour of some sort, that shouldn't be the end goal, just the means to achieve the goal. Which would be bringing the best players into the PDC system to have them compete with the men.

I'm not sure how do you go about that though. The current incentives the PDC has are great but are they enough for a long-term solution? I've already had the idea of giving the best women free entry to Q-School and/or the Challenge Tour. Maybe a tour card or two reserved for women? That might be too far though.

[SuperSwede]

This article gives a brief synopsis of Duffys thinking about women in the PDC idea based on how she understands the "Throwing Gap". I pretty much agree with her on the approach but I disagree on what the goal should be for the PDC. Duffy I think wants to see a women's tour raising the standard of women by providing better opportunities etc..She wants a larger approach to improve the womens game across a broader set of women. I believe this is the role of the WDF and the PDC should contribute and support the WDF to do just that.

https://sportsgazette.co.uk/its-a-publi ... mpionship/

I otoh think the PDC primary goal should be finding the best one or two women who have the ability to compete at the top level. I believe the best sorting mechanism is to have the best women playing in the PDC tours development, challenge and the Pro. So by ranking they earn their way into events and hopefully have proven they have the ability to at least be competitive. I believe there will only be one or two maybe three women at any given time that will be able to obtain a card and only one of those will be competitive and qualify for PDC events.

Think about it if a dozen women were competing and winning at the Pro Tour level, it wouldn't be to special and the novelty is gone. And I'm not convinced that male dart fans would be really interesting in watching women, they really don't watch other womens sports so not convinced darts would be any different. The draw for women to watch won't be significant as women are actually already a significant group according to past interviews with Hearn and Porter. Otoh if one woman can occasionally do what Fallon did then the novelty has a longer life as it isn't the norm. But if women continue to fail every year at Ally Pally or GSOD, it just becomes the norm and fans are like oh no another women playing a man here comes the hiding. The PDC current approach is solidifying just this if they continue on in the long term.

When you say "compete at the top level" what do you mean? If we believe the Throwing Gap is real, as you say whether physical or sociological causes which I think it is a combination of both, one being fixed and the other would take a hell of a lot of time to balance out and in truth is not something even worth thinking about as far as darts or indeed other sports are concerned.

The chances of finding someone even the level of an Ashton, Suzuki or Sherrock are already remote, then add they are the pick of the bunch and are still very long shots to beat what most outsiders would consider mediocre male players. I just don't see the value. There's no point being results oriented and thinking those results can be extrapolated. Sherrock was a long shot to win a game at Ally Pally and the more times those scenarios are played out the more of a long shot she would likely become as a decent portion of her likelihood of winning was the hysteria/hype/atmosphere and subsequent pressure and stigma for the male opponent generated by it being unusual and a novelty and much like the challenger/contender idea in the PL that will only and inevitably dilute and severely with each time. That's not even considering how quickly the interest would drop when the matches are played even with the original hype and hysteria and she still loses say 6 out of 7 times (possibly even being generous there)

The PDC and Barry Hearn are not interested in the women's game, it is merely the latest vehicle for them that is seen as a source of added revenue, nothing more. I think in this case what you want to do is to milk the cow while trying to balance the payout and longevity. Better to generate the same revenue over a longer period of time than a short burst as however small the % chance is that you arrive at a gem that can actually realistically live with a worthwhile level (in terms of outside perspective) of male opponents that % will increase with time be that naturally due to changing sociological landscape or through increased visibility or likely both. Either way I think the most important factor is keeping the women's game relevant and as things stand now the fastest way to kill or dilute that relevancy is to pit them against far superior male opponents in high profile and visibility games too often.

So I guess we largely agree other than the fact that I believe that while letting things play out naturally in terms of women making their way in the (men's) game there is still scope, interest and benefits to be had from showcasing the best female players against each other such as a women's match on PL nights.

[SuperSwede]

Cannibal, your comment and that article should be compulsory reading for many people (including some on here) that talk shit without any evidence.

I totally agree with you. Even if the PDC ends up creating a women's tour of some sort, that shouldn't be the end goal, just the means to achieve the goal. Which would be bringing the best players into the PDC system to have them compete with the men.

I'm not sure how do you go about that though. The current incentives the PDC has are great but are they enough for a long-term solution? I've already had the idea of giving the best women free entry to Q-School and/or the Challenge Tour. Maybe a tour card or two reserved for women? That might be too far though.

I definitely think there is room to artificially accelerate the process by designating say even 4 tour cards for female players.

[SuperSwede]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

[Emulsfier]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

Not until there are 8 women up to an ok standard.

[Malanax]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

The 8th highest "tour" average for the women's series was 73.7 - are people really going to want to watch that sort of standard on sky sports?

[Safc]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

The 8th highest "tour" average for the women's series was 73.7 - are people really going to want to watch that sort of standard on sky sports?

Absolutely not.

That might scare the Chinese qualifier in the main draw