PDC Women's Series & Slam Qualifier (16-18 Oct)

[SuperSwede]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

The 8th highest "tour" average for the women's series was 73.7 - are people really going to want to watch that sort of standard on sky sports?

The 8th best woman is better than that though, in my opinion at least. They've had no competitive action for around half a year and are of less natural ability to begin with so the dropoff because of that is going to be more than the men experienced. Plus not all the best women were there.

[The Thorn]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

I like the idea. 8 players might be the sweet spot, at least half of those will be watchable. Short format of course, prize money wouldn't be a big deal. Of course the question is whether people would tune in, and I think it's impossible to answer that. But it's not a big risk. I'd probably rather see the PDC try the small scale tour, and if it goes well go for a small TV event in the second year.

[SuperSwede]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

I like the idea. 8 players might be the sweet spot, at least half of those will be watchable. Short format of course, prize money wouldn't be a big deal. Of course the question is whether people would tune in, and I think it's impossible to answer that. But it's not a big risk. I'd probably rather see the PDC try the small scale tour, and if it goes well go for a small TV event in the second year.

I've enjoyed the last few women's events at Lakeide/O2 once they've hit the quarters so agree for now 8 is the number. 7 and 8 would definitely be weaker significantly than the rest but you can't do 6 and 4 wouldn't even be worth bothering from a credibility POV and the depth isn't there to go beyond 8.

[Potter's Lake]

The tour has been set up specifically to provide opportunites for women to compete at the highest level, avoiding segregation, and a woman who wasn't even good enough to win a tour card beat multiple men at the last WC. They're not going to be herded back into their own pen after all that, especially not as a sideshow in parallel to the main event.

Even the Women's Series is surely just a temporary measure to encourage more women to practice and compete until there are enough in the mix that at least one regularly qualifies for the big events through the usual means.

[cannibal]

This article gives a brief synopsis of Duffys thinking about women in the PDC idea based on how she understands the "Throwing Gap". I pretty much agree with her on the approach but I disagree on what the goal should be for the PDC. Duffy I think wants to see a women's tour raising the standard of women by providing better opportunities etc..She wants a larger approach to improve the womens game across a broader set of women. I believe this is the role of the WDF and the PDC should contribute and support the WDF to do just that.

https://sportsgazette.co.uk/its-a-publi ... mpionship/

I otoh think the PDC primary goal should be finding the best one or two women who have the ability to compete at the top level. I believe the best sorting mechanism is to have the best women playing in the PDC tours development, challenge and the Pro. So by ranking they earn their way into events and hopefully have proven they have the ability to at least be competitive. I believe there will only be one or two maybe three women at any given time that will be able to obtain a card and only one of those will be competitive and qualify for PDC events.

Think about it if a dozen women were competing and winning at the Pro Tour level, it wouldn't be to special and the novelty is gone. And I'm not convinced that male dart fans would be really interesting in watching women, they really don't watch other womens sports so not convinced darts would be any different. The draw for women to watch won't be significant as women are actually already a significant group according to past interviews with Hearn and Porter. Otoh if one woman can occasionally do what Fallon did then the novelty has a longer life as it isn't the norm. But if women continue to fail every year at Ally Pally or GSOD, it just becomes the norm and fans are like oh no another women playing a man here comes the hiding. The PDC current approach is solidifying just this if they continue on in the long term.

When you say "compete at the top level" what do you mean? If we believe the Throwing Gap is real, as you say whether physical or sociological causes which I think it is a combination of both, one being fixed and the other would take a hell of a lot of time to balance out and in truth is not something even worth thinking about as far as darts or indeed other sports are concerned.

The chances of finding someone even the level of an Ashton, Suzuki or Sherrock are already remote, then add they are the pick of the bunch and are still very long shots to beat what most outsiders would consider mediocre male players. I just don't see the value. There's no point being results oriented and thinking those results can be extrapolated. Sherrock was a long shot to win a game at Ally Pally and the more times those scenarios are played out the more of a long shot she would likely become as a decent portion of her likelihood of winning was the hysteria/hype/atmosphere and subsequent pressure and stigma for the male opponent generated by it being unusual and a novelty and much like the challenger/contender idea in the PL that will only and inevitably dilute and severely with each time. That's not even considering how quickly the interest would drop when the matches are played even with the original hype and hysteria and she still loses say 6 out of 7 times (possibly even being generous there)

The PDC and Barry Hearn are not interested in the women's game, it is merely the latest vehicle for them that is seen as a source of added revenue, nothing more. I think in this case what you want to do is to milk the cow while trying to balance the payout and longevity. Better to generate the same revenue over a longer period of time than a short burst as however small the % chance is that you arrive at a gem that can actually realistically live with a worthwhile level (in terms of outside perspective) of male opponents that % will increase with time be that naturally due to changing sociological landscape or through increased visibility or likely both. Either way I think the most important factor is keeping the women's game relevant and as things stand now the fastest way to kill or dilute that relevancy is to pit them against far superior male opponents in high profile and visibility games too often.

So I guess we largely agree other than the fact that I believe that while letting things play out naturally in terms of women making their way in the (men's) game there is still scope, interest and benefits to be had from showcasing the best female players against each other such as a women's match on PL nights.

By top level I mean PDC Pro Tour, by compete I mean be in the middle of the pack or thereabouts at least in standard if not ranking, i.e. be able to retain a tour card consistently. Ashton is about halfway there including her first round money for the Worlds. Standard wise (based on dart connect stats) her avg puts her at 118 out of 153 who have played on the Pro Tour. Her first 9 places her at 123 and her leg win% puts her somewhere around 110. Of course this doesn't mean she can't keep her tour card but it certainly reduces her probability of making enough in the next year to secure it. If she qualifies for 2022 to the worlds and do what she did this past year she might just get into the top 64.

The "throwing gap" is real it is settled scientific fact it exists. Just because we don't know why doesn't mean it isn't scientific fact. Lots of things we don't know why or how but we know it exists and we except it as fact. I agree with you that the gap is due to both physical and sociological factors. If the Sociological factors can be changed or mitigated the Physical factor still remains. Why does it matter? Because it effects how the PDC should proceed going forward in dealing with the sport. Currently it appears they believe no physical barrier exists between men and women so one tour for all is the way, with an occasional special qualifying crumb for the women to goose the womens game forward. If the goal is to foster the womens game for the sake of womens darts then the PDC approach is tepid at best. If the goal is to find that one or two women who can really compete against men, again the PDC approach is tepid at best. They have existing tours to help players progress and it is an efficient sorting mechanism (relative to anything else that has been done in the past at least).

[cannibal]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

This is a bit of continuation from my previous post as the issue is linked in a round about way.
Yes I would be against it. For one the standard isn't comparable and from the Lakeside experience where the mens game is shit the womens games still look shit. It is just at times painful to watch. In the PDC setting the quality difference would be even further amplified. I do think there is value in the womens game and developing it as it furthers the sport for the sake of the sport and for the sake of giving women opportunity in the sport. Good reasons in and of themselves. The PDC is about the highest standard and that is and should be their main focus of course. The womens game isn't there and a full blown tour just for women won't find the one or two women the PDC desires. This is why the WDF should be doing the main brunt of the work in developing opportunities for the women. Those women good enough or testing the waters can do the other PDC tours and q school. The PDC can use the load of cash to develop the things they need to focus on like expanding the TV market globally and bringing in a larger contingent of quality players internationally. Bot of which are big long term undertakings. The PDC should throw a few quid the way of the WDF for the womens game and help them with professional consulting in TV and sponsor deals for an amateur world champs.

The PDC imho if they want better quality women I think they need to seriously think about how to attract professional sportswomen from other sports. I know people don't think darts is a physical sport but I think it is, just doesn't require brute strength. Elite athletes not only have superior ability to perform physically they also have a better ability to adapt training techniques, solve and break down ways to increase their performance. They also understand how to receive and implement coaching and new techniques. Because they have been doing it since they were kids. They also have experience competing in high pressure situations again because they have been doing it for years. It is no coincidence that Price has had success as quick as he did. Years of playing a sport at pretty high level prepared him mentally to deal with pressure and figure out how to prepare himself to improve in darts. Women and Men at the elite level have the same drive and determination and analytical brains regardless of what some crackpot stupid ass snooker player thinks. Again read the literature on this, been studied for years. Point is getting some women who have experience playing elite sports I think could make a quicker transformation into playing darts at the top level than say waiting around for Sherock or Ashton to improve their game. Greaves I will give a few more years to see how she develops but she needs to be in there mixing it with the males as much as possible.

[oche balboa]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

Not until there are 8 women up to an ok standard.

I think there is currently.

[Emulsfier]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

Not until there are 8 women up to an ok standard.

I think there is currently.

Whom? Ashton Sherrock and Deta are decent, maybe Hammond at a stretch too. Everyone else isnt up to it. Anastasia isnt up to the task any more, Winsanley is just as mince as she has always been, and Greaves has fallen down a bit of a sinkhole skill wise. She averaged in the 60s more than she did in the 80s.

[oche balboa]

Some didnt perform at the Series but the best 8 IMO are

Ashton, Suzuki, Sherrock, Hedman, Greaves, De Graaf, (Any 2 from these 3) Winstanley, Hammond & Dobromyslova

[Emulsfier]

Some didnt perform at the Series but the best 8 IMO are

Ashton, Suzuki, Sherrock, Hedman, Greaves, De Graaf, (Any 2 from these 3) Winstanley, Hammond & Dobromyslova

If you think Winstanley is at an ok standard then we completely disagree on what that standard is.

[oche balboa]

Some didnt perform at the Series but the best 8 IMO are

Ashton, Suzuki, Sherrock, Hedman, Greaves, De Graaf, (Any 2 from these 3) Winstanley, Hammond & Dobromyslova

If you think Winstanley is at an ok standard then we completely disagree on what that standard is.

We shouldnt be comparing it to the men. Winstanley plays at a decent standard for the ladies game

[Randall]

Winstanley has just about the worst action I've ever seen

[Tommo]

Winstanley has just about the worst action I've ever seen

+1

[Randall]

Winstanley has just about the worst action I've ever seen

+1

I'm amazed she even hits the board

[oche balboa]

Part of the talent then

[Jimmi]

Winstanley has just about the worst action I've ever seen

+1

I'm amazed she even hits the board

Fallon had that trouble

[Randall]

So did ted

[Emulsfier]

Some didnt perform at the Series but the best 8 IMO are

Ashton, Suzuki, Sherrock, Hedman, Greaves, De Graaf, (Any 2 from these 3) Winstanley, Hammond & Dobromyslova

If you think Winstanley is at an ok standard then we completely disagree on what that standard is.

We shouldnt be comparing it to the men. Winstanley plays at a decent standard for the ladies game

My standard isnt the mens game. Its for them to trudge along at about 80, without too many nightmare legs. Ashton Suziki Sherrock and hopefully Deta can do that. Rest cant.

[SuperSwede]

I'd be interested to hear if either of you (cannibal, Thorn) or others would be against the PDC having a Women's World Championship played out during the World's?

From a quality control perspective something like 4-5 Women's Series played during the year and the top 8 on the OOM qualifying.

This is a bit of continuation from my previous post as the issue is linked in a round about way.
Yes I would be against it. For one the standard isn't comparable and from the Lakeside experience where the mens game is shit the womens games still look shit. It is just at times painful to watch. In the PDC setting the quality difference would be even further amplified. I do think there is value in the womens game and developing it as it furthers the sport for the sake of the sport and for the sake of giving women opportunity in the sport. Good reasons in and of themselves. The PDC is about the highest standard and that is and should be their main focus of course. The womens game isn't there and a full blown tour just for women won't find the one or two women the PDC desires. This is why the WDF should be doing the main brunt of the work in developing opportunities for the women. Those women good enough or testing the waters can do the other PDC tours and q school. The PDC can use the load of cash to develop the things they need to focus on like expanding the TV market globally and bringing in a larger contingent of quality players internationally. Bot of which are big long term undertakings. The PDC should throw a few quid the way of the WDF for the womens game and help them with professional consulting in TV and sponsor deals for an amateur world champs.

The PDC imho if they want better quality women I think they need to seriously think about how to attract professional sportswomen from other sports. I know people don't think darts is a physical sport but I think it is, just doesn't require brute strength. Elite athletes not only have superior ability to perform physically they also have a better ability to adapt training techniques, solve and break down ways to increase their performance. They also understand how to receive and implement coaching and new techniques. Because they have been doing it since they were kids. They also have experience competing in high pressure situations again because they have been doing it for years. It is no coincidence that Price has had success as quick as he did. Years of playing a sport at pretty high level prepared him mentally to deal with pressure and figure out how to prepare himself to improve in darts. Women and Men at the elite level have the same drive and determination and analytical brains regardless of what some crackpot stupid ass snooker player thinks. Again read the literature on this, been studied for years. Point is getting some women who have experience playing elite sports I think could make a quicker transformation into playing darts at the top level than say waiting around for Sherock or Ashton to improve their game. Greaves I will give a few more years to see how she develops but she needs to be in there mixing it with the males as much as possible.

Can't disagree with anything here really especially " from the Lakeside experience where the mens game is shit the womens games still look shit. It is just at times painful to watch. In the PDC setting the quality difference would be even further amplified"

That is the best argument against it and a more than fair one. I still think it might be +EV though but i'm possibly too focused on the end goal and being clouded. I'm reminded of how tough a watch it was seeing Gawlas die a death on stage in the last World Youth Championships which probably furthers your point.

Agree fully re switching female athletes from other areas being the way to go, that is likely a quicker route than waiting 10+ years for what I suspect is the growing number of young girls participating in the game to show fruits.

I just find it very tough to reconcile myself with the idea that a middle of the tour plodder is the best that can be achieved from a business and marketing POV. It means a very small window of opportunity for showcasing when a very large % of the viewing public probably don't even know there is a nuts and bolts tour that exists.

[Rogg]