Pro Wrestling

[Jimmi]

They tried having him as a face after The Shield were no longer a group and it failed miserably
One huge factor that drove me away from watching

Wrestlers can thrive in roles at certain stages of their career, but not in other stages.

If they turned him face, there’s nothing to say that he can’t get over as one
But it failed for 5 or so years straight, so I won’t get my hopes up

[Jimmi]

Nice to see a backstage beat down and a bit of blood at the end, rock has been tremendous since he turned heel.

He was always better as a heel

Specifically a heel as “Hollywood Rock”

There is a belief on some forums that the Hollywood Rock character was a flop due to the low buyrates for WM19 and Backlash 03.

It ignores that the marketing for WM19 was centred around the Hogan vs Vince bout and the Iraq War ongoing during that period.

That character would have drawn very well had it appeared in another era, specifically against Austin.

Didn’t Goldberg return at Backlash 2003 and beat Rocky?
Odd that given the card for Wrestlemania 19, I’m surprised you said it did a “low buyrate”
Still the come down from no more attitude era perhaps?

[sennafan24]

Didn’t Goldberg return at Backlash 2003 and beat Rocky?
Odd that given the card for Wrestlemania 19, I’m surprised you said it did a “low buyrate”
Still the come down from no more attitude era perhaps?

WM19 attracted fewer worldwide buys than Royal Rumble 2003 and only 27k more domestic buys - https://wrestlenomics.com/resources/wwe ... v-buyrate/

The relatively low number of buys can mostly be attributed to the the Iraq War and the Hogan/Vince bout being pushed as the main attraction. The amount of buys was low even for post-Attitude standards. The following WMs performed far better on PPV.

Backlash 2003 was indeed Rock vs Goldberg. The Iraq War was still ongoing when it happened. The theory is that consumers were following progress of the war, rather than spending their time watching wrestling or other forms of entertainment.

[Jimmi]

Didn’t Goldberg return at Backlash 2003 and beat Rocky?
Odd that given the card for Wrestlemania 19, I’m surprised you said it did a “low buyrate”
Still the come down from no more attitude era perhaps?

WM19 attracted fewer worldwide buys than Royal Rumble 2003 and only 27k more domestic buys - https://wrestlenomics.com/resources/wwe ... v-buyrate/

The relatively low number of buys can mostly be attributed to the the Iraq War and the Hogan/Vince bout being pushed as the main attraction. The amount of buys was low even for post-Attitude standards. The following WMs performed far better on PPV.

Backlash 2003 was indeed Rock vs Goldberg. The Iraq War was still ongoing when it happened. The theory is that consumers were following progress of the war, rather than spending their time watching wrestling or other forms of entertainment.

Why was the main focus on two old cunts, one of which isn’t even a trained wrestler in McMahon and Hogan?
I don’t recall the storyline reason for the match but I’m guessing it would have been relating to Hogan buggering off to WCW and everyone knows Vince couldn’t let anything WCW had over him go lightly

Without looking, the card had - Rock - Austin III, Jericho - HBK and a main event of Angle - Lesnar
Three matches worth anyone’s money right there

[sennafan24]

Why was the main focus on two old cunts, one of which isn’t even a trained wrestler in McMahon and Hogan?
I don’t recall the storyline reason for the match but I’m guessing it would have been relating to Hogan buggering off to WCW and everyone knows Vince couldn’t let anything WCW had over him go lightly

Without looking, the card had - Rock - Austin III, Jericho - HBK and a main event of Angle - Lesnar
Three matches worth anyone’s money right there

IIRC it was over their personal beef in the 90s (steroid trial, leaving for WCW, etc)

Vince was one of the greatest heels in American wrestling and Hogan was arguably the biggest draw, but few cared to see them feud in 2003, let alone wrestle. So it was pretty much a case of misreading the audience (perhaps self-indulgence on Vince's part)

They really misused Hogan in 02 and 03. Hogan at that stage of his career was best used as a special attraction every 18 months or so and in dream matches with other legendary wrestlers (Rock, HBK, etc). In those scenarios he could still draw well. Yet, they booked him as champion and a full-timer post-WM18 in 2002 (which bombed), and then booked him in a long program with Vince in 2003 (it carried on post-WM19 with Piper becoming involved and the Mr America gimmick).

[Jimmi]

Why was the main focus on two old cunts, one of which isn’t even a trained wrestler in McMahon and Hogan?
I don’t recall the storyline reason for the match but I’m guessing it would have been relating to Hogan buggering off to WCW and everyone knows Vince couldn’t let anything WCW had over him go lightly

Without looking, the card had - Rock - Austin III, Jericho - HBK and a main event of Angle - Lesnar
Three matches worth anyone’s money right there

IIRC it was over their personal beef in the 90s (steroid trial, leaving for WCW, etc)

Vince was one of the greatest heels in American wrestling and Hogan was arguably the biggest draw, but few cared to see them feud in 2003, let alone wrestle. So it was pretty much a case of misreading the audience (perhaps self-indulgence on Vince's part)

They really misused Hogan in 02 and 03. Hogan at that stage of his career was best used as a special attraction every 18 months or so and in dream matches with other legendary wrestlers (Rock, HBK, etc). In those scenarios he could still draw well. Yet, they booked him as champion and a full-timer post-WM18 in 2002 (which bombed), and then booked him in a long program with Vince in 2003 (it carried on post-WM19 with Piper becoming involved and the Mr America gimmick).

Ah, didn’t Hogan testify against Vince in the steroid trial?

Vince McMahon and self indulgence in the same sentence? Never!
I would agree with you that Hogan is arguably the biggest draw of all time. Definitely not in 2003, of course but overall, I would say he is

Ha, the Summerslam 2005 match with HBK is legendary for all the wrong reasons
And Randy Orton should have beaten Hogan at Summerslam 2006

I’m pretty sure that the only reason Hogan agreed to put over The Rock at WM18 was because he was promised the Undisputed Title as a compromise
And 2003 was when I wasn’t watching (no Sky Sports as previously mentioned in the thread some pages back) and I’ve seen clips of Hogan as Mr America and the awful lie detector test segment on Smackdown

[sennafan24]

Ah, didn’t Hogan testify against Vince in the steroid trial?

He was given immunity from prosecution.

Hogan testified that he and Vince had discussed cycling steroids, and that Vince had also used some of his steroids. However, Hogan additionally testified that Vince had never requested that he (or others as far as he was aware) actually use them - https://www.angelfire.com/fl2/SpiritoholicsI/hogan.html

[Cooking with Sanchez]

Probably the best work of his career. In 2024 ffs.

Probably helps that he’s on the Board of Directors now and basically can do whatever he wants

That’s what happens when you fuck with the final boss!

[Jimmi]

Ah, didn’t Hogan testify against Vince in the steroid trial?

He was given immunity from prosecution.

Hogan testified that he and Vince had discussed cycling steroids, and that Vince had also used some of his steroids. However, Hogan additionally testified that Vince had never requested that he (or others as far as he was aware) actually use them - https://www.angelfire.com/fl2/SpiritoholicsI/hogan.html

I think I watched the Dark Side of The Ring episode about it
The one thing I remember clearly was Vince attending in a neck brace after using it in a storyline to garner more sympathy from the jury

[Jimmi]

Probably the best work of his career. In 2024 ffs.

Probably helps that he’s on the Board of Directors now and basically can do whatever he wants

That’s what happens when you fuck with the final boss!

I don’t get The Rock calling himself that
Well, I do
Just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because surely Roman Reigns is the “Final Boss”?

[sennafan24]

Ah, didn’t Hogan testify against Vince in the steroid trial?

He was given immunity from prosecution.

Hogan testified that he and Vince had discussed cycling steroids, and that Vince had also used some of his steroids. However, Hogan additionally testified that Vince had never requested that he (or others as far as he was aware) actually use them - https://www.angelfire.com/fl2/SpiritoholicsI/hogan.html

I think I watched the Dark Side of The Ring episode about it
The one thing I remember clearly was Vince attending in a neck brace after using it in a storyline to garner more sympathy from the jury

Aye, I watched that episode.

Apparently the government would have been able convict WWF/Vince if the ring boy scandal was the focus of the trial. There is apparently a video showing Tom Cole interfering with a young ring boy. But instead the government chose to focus on steroids.

[sennafan24]

Randomly stumbled across a clip of Rock brutalising Rhodes on RAW. Damn, Rock can still perform in segments/angles.

[Jimmi]

Randomly stumbled across a clip of Rock brutalising Rhodes on RAW. Damn, Rock can still perform in segments/angles.

Rock is the GOAT

Would rather see him against Cody Rhodes, than the planned Rock vs Roman Reigns

[sennafan24]

Randomly stumbled across a clip of Rock brutalising Rhodes on RAW. Damn, Rock can still perform in segments/angles.

Rock is the GOAT

Would rather see him against Cody Rhodes, than the planned Rock vs Roman Reigns

Rock would probably make my top 5 American all-rounders.

[Jimmi]

Randomly stumbled across a clip of Rock brutalising Rhodes on RAW. Damn, Rock can still perform in segments/angles.

Rock is the GOAT

Would rather see him against Cody Rhodes, than the planned Rock vs Roman Reigns

Rock would probably make my top 5 American all-rounders.

I’ve still never really watched anything from Jerry Lawler in his prime
I guess I should from what you’ve mentioned previously

[sennafan24]

I’ve still never really watched anything from Jerry Lawler in his prime
I guess I should from what you’ve mentioned previously

Lawler is probably the best puncher in wrestling history, great at timing comebacks, selling/bumping, working with varied opponents, etc. So long as you don't expect to see a ton of different moves and bouts with momentum changes every 30 seconds, you should enjoy his work.

You can't go wrong with the top 7 matches of this list - https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/ind ... s-results/

Most of them can be viewed on YouTube.

I still appreciate you convincing me to give Danielson's work a chance

[Jimmi]

I’ve still never really watched anything from Jerry Lawler in his prime
I guess I should from what you’ve mentioned previously

Lawler is probably the best puncher in wrestling history, great at timing comebacks, selling/bumping, working with varied opponents, etc. So long as you don't expect to see a ton of different moves and bouts with momentum changes every 30 seconds, you should enjoy his work.

You can't go wrong with the top 7 matches of this list - https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/ind ... s-results/

Most of them can be viewed on YouTube.

I still appreciate you convincing me to give Danielson's work a chance

Basically, you won’t have another Jerry Lawler type character in the 21st century because for the most part, like you say, a lot of wrestlers just want to get all their spots in for the time that they’ve been given for their match

Imagine a match between a prime Danielson and a prime Kurt Angle

[sennafan24]

Basically, you won’t have another Jerry Lawler type character in the 21st century because for the most part, like you say, a lot of wrestlers just want to get all their spots in for the time that they’ve been given for their match

Imagine a match between a prime Danielson and a prime Kurt Angle

Funnily enough, Angle is credited in some circles for having some influence on modern wrestling (go-go, tons of false finishers, etc).

I would have loved to see a heel Danielson work with a peak Rey.

[Jimmi]

Basically, you won’t have another Jerry Lawler type character in the 21st century because for the most part, like you say, a lot of wrestlers just want to get all their spots in for the time that they’ve been given for their match

Imagine a match between a prime Danielson and a prime Kurt Angle

Funnily enough, Angle is credited in some circles for having some influence on modern wrestling (go-go, tons of false finishers, etc).

I would have loved to see a heel Danielson work with a peak Rey.

I don’t mind false finishes but when they’re done to death on Dynamite every week, it takes it away from when it happens on Pay Per Views
I’m not sure if it happens in WWE a lot, my guess is that it doesn’t
The main thing for me that is dead in modern wrestling is selling
On Dynamite this week, Will Osprey got thunder-cunted with a knee/kick to the face and he was fine about 5 seconds later
I’d like him even more if he just sold a few moves every now and then, so it’ll be interesting to see if he does against Danielson in a few weeks

The match itself would be great, not so sure about the build up because Mysterio isn’t exactly known for his promo ability

[sennafan24]

I don’t mind false finishes but when they’re done to death on Dynamite every week, it takes it away from when it happens on Pay Per Views
I’m not sure if it happens in WWE a lot, my guess is that it doesn’t
The main thing for me that is dead in modern wrestling is selling
On Dynamite this week, Will Osprey got thunder-cunted with a knee/kick to the face and he was fine about 5 seconds later
I’d like him even more if he just sold a few moves every now and then, so it’ll be interesting to see if he does against Danielson in a few weeks

The match itself would be great, not so sure about the build up because Mysterio isn’t exactly known for his promo ability

I've watched some of Angle's most touted WWF matches back recently. In some of them there was an excessive amount of finisher trading and some lax selling of big moves. Although my impression is that he got worse for that in TNA where he didn't have anyone to reign him in. Angle wasn't the first wrestler who had a tendency to trade finishers excessively or recover too quickly from big moves, but it does appear his work had an influence on the generation that followed him.

I watched a few Ospreay bouts out of interest a while back. They did very little for me.