Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

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Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest dartsplayers list?

Top 3
31
55%
Top 5
21
38%
Top 10
1
2%
Outside the top 10
3
5%
 
Total votes: 56

Malanax
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Malanax » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:10 pm

PT13 wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:58 pm
Rogg wrote:I bet Lewis was gutted when MVG bagged #2. He's sneered on twitter often enough about being 2-1 up. He had some nerve even doing that.
He can't do that anymore, now. Lewis was neck and neck with van Gerwen as recently as 3 years ago, yet their careers have gone in opposite directions since Lewis' 2014 UK Open win. I honestly believe one of the keys to what van Gerwen has done is his hunger and desire. He simply has more of it than other players, for almost every tournament, on the floor and TV. When they interviewed him after the match last night, he had tears in his eyes because he was remembering the pain of his previous 2 World Championship defeats and his delight and relief in winning the World Championship again. He has a hunger for competing and winning that other players will need to get if they hope to match him. Having said that, van Gerwen is clearly more vulnerable at the World Championship with the sets format and every player being massively motivated. Van Gerwen would have lost to Barney again for sure had van Gerwen not brought out his very best darts.
Rogg wrote:-- PT13 you're the man, what's the MVG-Lewis TV title count? I'd guess it's about 25-4 by now. When Lewis became a 2-time champ, MVG was nobody, ranked 38th at that Worlds. Wind forward 5 years and the great Dutchman has left him for dead.
In singles, and not counting World Series events:

Adrian Lewis
1. 2011 World Championship
2. 2012 World Championship
3. 2013 European Championship
4. 2014 UK Open

Michael van Gerwen
1. 2006 World Masters
2. 2012 World Grand Prix
3. 2013 Premier League
4. 2013 Players Championship Finals
5. 2014 World Championship
6. 2014 World Grand Prix
7. 2014 European Championship
8. 2015 Masters
9. 2015 UK Open
10. 2015 World Matchplay
11. 2015 European Championship
12. 2015 Grand Slam of Darts
13. 2015 Players Championship Finals
14. 2016 Masters
15. 2016 UK Open
16. 2016 Premier League
17. 2016 World Matchplay
18. 2016 World Grand Prix
19. 2016 European Championship
20. 2016 Grand Slam of Darts
21. 2016 Players Championship Finals
22. 2017 World Championship
any chance of an updated list as of today please? Is lewis the multi time world champion with the least other tv titles i wonder?

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PT13
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:42 pm

Malanax wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:10 pm
PT13 wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:58 pm
Rogg wrote:I bet Lewis was gutted when MVG bagged #2. He's sneered on twitter often enough about being 2-1 up. He had some nerve even doing that.
He can't do that anymore, now. Lewis was neck and neck with van Gerwen as recently as 3 years ago, yet their careers have gone in opposite directions since Lewis' 2014 UK Open win. I honestly believe one of the keys to what van Gerwen has done is his hunger and desire. He simply has more of it than other players, for almost every tournament, on the floor and TV. When they interviewed him after the match last night, he had tears in his eyes because he was remembering the pain of his previous 2 World Championship defeats and his delight and relief in winning the World Championship again. He has a hunger for competing and winning that other players will need to get if they hope to match him. Having said that, van Gerwen is clearly more vulnerable at the World Championship with the sets format and every player being massively motivated. Van Gerwen would have lost to Barney again for sure had van Gerwen not brought out his very best darts.
Rogg wrote:-- PT13 you're the man, what's the MVG-Lewis TV title count? I'd guess it's about 25-4 by now. When Lewis became a 2-time champ, MVG was nobody, ranked 38th at that Worlds. Wind forward 5 years and the great Dutchman has left him for dead.
In singles, and not counting World Series events:

Adrian Lewis
1. 2011 World Championship
2. 2012 World Championship
3. 2013 European Championship
4. 2014 UK Open

Michael van Gerwen
1. 2006 World Masters
2. 2012 World Grand Prix
3. 2013 Premier League
4. 2013 Players Championship Finals
5. 2014 World Championship
6. 2014 World Grand Prix
7. 2014 European Championship
8. 2015 Masters
9. 2015 UK Open
10. 2015 World Matchplay
11. 2015 European Championship
12. 2015 Grand Slam of Darts
13. 2015 Players Championship Finals
14. 2016 Masters
15. 2016 UK Open
16. 2016 Premier League
17. 2016 World Matchplay
18. 2016 World Grand Prix
19. 2016 European Championship
20. 2016 Grand Slam of Darts
21. 2016 Players Championship Finals
22. 2017 World Championship
any chance of an updated list as of today please? Is lewis the multi time world champion with the least other tv titles i wonder?
An updated list:

Adrian Lewis
1. 2011 World Championship
2. 2012 World Championship
3. 2013 European Championship
4. 2014 UK Open

Michael van Gerwen
1. 2006 World Masters
2. 2012 World Grand Prix
3. 2013 Premier League
4. 2013 Players Championship Finals
5. 2014 World Championship
6. 2014 World Grand Prix
7. 2014 European Championship
8. 2015 Masters
9. 2015 UK Open
10. 2015 World Matchplay
11. 2015 European Championship
12. 2015 Grand Slam of Darts
13. 2015 Players Championship Finals
14. 2016 Masters
15. 2016 UK Open
16. 2016 Premier League
17. 2016 World Matchplay
18. 2016 World Grand Prix
19. 2016 European Championship
20. 2016 Grand Slam of Darts
21. 2016 Players Championship Finals
22. 2017 World Championship
23. 2017 Masters
24. 2017 Premier League
25. 2017 European Championship
26. 2017 Grand Slam of Darts
27. 2017 Players Championship Finals
28. 2018 Masters
29. 2018 Premier League
30. 2018 World Grand Prix
31. 2019 World Championship

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:55 pm

Malanax wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:10 pm
PT13 wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:58 pm
Rogg wrote:I bet Lewis was gutted when MVG bagged #2. He's sneered on twitter often enough about being 2-1 up. He had some nerve even doing that.
He can't do that anymore, now. Lewis was neck and neck with van Gerwen as recently as 3 years ago, yet their careers have gone in opposite directions since Lewis' 2014 UK Open win. I honestly believe one of the keys to what van Gerwen has done is his hunger and desire. He simply has more of it than other players, for almost every tournament, on the floor and TV. When they interviewed him after the match last night, he had tears in his eyes because he was remembering the pain of his previous 2 World Championship defeats and his delight and relief in winning the World Championship again. He has a hunger for competing and winning that other players will need to get if they hope to match him. Having said that, van Gerwen is clearly more vulnerable at the World Championship with the sets format and every player being massively motivated. Van Gerwen would have lost to Barney again for sure had van Gerwen not brought out his very best darts.
Rogg wrote:-- PT13 you're the man, what's the MVG-Lewis TV title count? I'd guess it's about 25-4 by now. When Lewis became a 2-time champ, MVG was nobody, ranked 38th at that Worlds. Wind forward 5 years and the great Dutchman has left him for dead.
In singles, and not counting World Series events:

Adrian Lewis
1. 2011 World Championship
2. 2012 World Championship
3. 2013 European Championship
4. 2014 UK Open

Michael van Gerwen
1. 2006 World Masters
2. 2012 World Grand Prix
3. 2013 Premier League
4. 2013 Players Championship Finals
5. 2014 World Championship
6. 2014 World Grand Prix
7. 2014 European Championship
8. 2015 Masters
9. 2015 UK Open
10. 2015 World Matchplay
11. 2015 European Championship
12. 2015 Grand Slam of Darts
13. 2015 Players Championship Finals
14. 2016 Masters
15. 2016 UK Open
16. 2016 Premier League
17. 2016 World Matchplay
18. 2016 World Grand Prix
19. 2016 European Championship
20. 2016 Grand Slam of Darts
21. 2016 Players Championship Finals
22. 2017 World Championship
any chance of an updated list as of today please? Is lewis the multi time world champion with the least other tv titles i wonder?
No. John Part only won one major other than his three world titles - the 2006 Las Vegas Desert Classic. Dennis Priestley only won one major other than his two world titles - the 1992 World Masters. If we include the BDO post split, Ted Hankey never won any majors other than his two world titles.

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PT13
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:43 pm

Dennis Priestley had the misfortune to run into Phil Taylor a lot in the second half of the 1990s. John Part likewise in 2001-2004.

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Captain Hobo
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Captain Hobo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:47 pm

PT13 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:43 pm
Dennis Priestley had the misfortune to run into Phil Taylor a lot in the second half of the 1990s. John Part likewise in 2001-2004.
Plus the fact there were fewer major tournaments in those days. With the amount of 'Majors' now, Lewis should have won a lot more.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by medinabello » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:19 am

2nd behind The Power. Nobody will ever surplant Taylor. He is the greatest sportsman who ever drew breath.

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Tommo
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Tommo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:08 pm

"Sportsman".
They're all here!

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Randall
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Randall » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:28 pm

Tommo wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:08 pm
"Sportsman".
Champion you could get away with.
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paolo2144
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by paolo2144 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:14 am

According to MvG he is already the greatest ever :-)

https://www.skysports.com/darts/news/12 ... the-planet

Not quite sure i agree with his statement, yes over shorter formats of best of 15 legs or less i think his peak performances may slightly surpass Taylor's , but over the best of 11/13 sets or 33 or 35 legs like the later stages of the World Matchplay and World Championship i still think Taylor's peak was just above MvG's. Also you have to factor in that every 5 years or so the scoring target areas are slightly more generous, I personally think Taylor's 111+ average against Shayne Burgess back in 2002 was more impressive than MvG's 112+ two years ago due to the difference in dartboards

However the one think MvG has against him is that an aging Taylor clearly past his peak was still able to beat him on several occasions during the last 18 months of his career and i think that is where Taylor had the edge, i think he was that bit mentally tougher than Van Gerwen.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:49 am

paolo2144 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:14 am
According to MvG he is already the greatest ever :-)

https://www.skysports.com/darts/news/12 ... the-planet
What Michael van Gerwen says here, I sort of answered earlier in the thread.

The fact is that Taylor was the pioneer of the high professional standard that defines the modern game. In other words, Taylor had to set a higher bar than what was normal, a higher level of professional standard of play and refuse to take the easy way of allowing his level of play to be dragged down back into the pack amid that old school culture. Without what Taylor did back then, the modern darts world doesn't happen, which van Gerwen himself seems to acknowledge when he says that every dart player who makes good money owes their career to what Phil did.

And Taylor could still dominant a lot when the strength in depth became huge. He was always the main man in darts from 1995-2013, in my opinion, until the 2013 Players Championship final, even if one of his rivals might have briefly been considered in better form, like Barney in early and mid 2007, or even van Gerwen in the first half of 2013. In 2014, he could still win the World Matchplay in dominant fashion (18-9 over van Gerwen, after leading 11-2) and eek out a win in the Grand Slam of Darts, when van Gerwen was now world number 1 (although not dominant yet).

There was a period, going from the start of 2015 until the 2016 World Matchplay final, when van Gerwen had a big edge over Taylor in their matches. Nobody had ever dominated Taylor like this in his career, although Taylor gave himself chances in some of the matches and fluffed his lines (like the 2016 Masters semi final, and 2016 UK Open semi final). But, Taylor did turn this around, as he won most of his TV matches against van Gerwen after the 2016 World Matchplay final, most brilliant of all the 16-6 win in the 2017 World Matchplay quarter final. The two wins in two nights in Cardiff in the 2016 Champions League were good too, 10-4 and 11-5, and the 2017 Premier League win in Sheffield. Even in his last year before retiring, Taylor won the 2017 World Matchplay in dominant fashion (including 16-6 against van Gerwen) and was runner-up of the 2018 World Championship.

Taylor has proven himself as the greatest of all time.
paolo2144 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:14 am
Not quite sure i agree with his statement, yes over shorter formats of best of 15 legs or less i think his peak performances may slightly surpass Taylor's , but over the best of 11/13 sets or 33 or 35 legs like the later stages of the World Matchplay and World Championship i still think Taylor's peak was just above MvG's. Also you have to factor in that every 5 years or so the scoring target areas are slightly more generous, I personally think Taylor's 111+ average against Shayne Burgess back in 2002 was more impressive than MvG's 112+ two years ago due to the difference in dartboards

However the one think MvG has against him is that an aging Taylor clearly past his peak was still able to beat him on several occasions during the last 18 months of his career and i think that is where Taylor had the edge, i think he was that bit mentally tougher than Van Gerwen.
Taylor was sensational that night at the 2017 World Matchplay, and his victorious boxer style interview after the match.

At the World Matchplay, van Gerwen had a big victory over Taylor in the 2016 final, but he has gotten nowhere near Taylor stats wise at the event really. The best 5 (maybe more) tournament averages all belong to Taylor at the present time. At the World Championship, van Gerwen has become better than Taylor in terms of averages in some ways (highest match average, consecutive matches with 100+ averages), but I always got the feeling that Taylor never really took to Alexandra Palace compared to the Circus Tavern and the Winter Gardens. Taylor only won 1 of his last 8 World Championship attempts after his dominant 2009 and 2010 wins, and was runner-up twice in that 8-year period, which for someone of Taylor's dominance is way below his usual standard. Compare that to his last 8 World Matchplays, where he won 6, was runner-up in another, and a semi final loser in another. Taylor's main domain in darts for years and years was the Circus Tavern, and that switched to the Winter Gardens after 2007.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:19 am

PT13 wrote:At the World Matchplay, van Gerwen had a big victory over Taylor in the 2016 final, but he has gotten nowhere near Taylor stats wise at the event really. The best 5 (maybe more) tournament averages all belong to Taylor at the present time.
Actually the top 7 tournament averages all belong to Taylor, I believe. Furthermore, the 8th best tournament average was recorded by Gary Anderson, not MVG.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:35 pm

paolo2144 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:14 am
According to MvG he is already the greatest ever :-)

https://www.skysports.com/darts/news/12 ... the-planet

Not quite sure i agree with his statement, yes over shorter formats of best of 15 legs or less i think his peak performances may slightly surpass Taylor's , but over the best of 11/13 sets or 33 or 35 legs like the later stages of the World Matchplay and World Championship i still think Taylor's peak was just above MvG's. Also you have to factor in that every 5 years or so the scoring target areas are slightly more generous, I personally think Taylor's 111+ average against Shayne Burgess back in 2002 was more impressive than MvG's 112+ two years ago due to the difference in dartboards
Absolutely, MvG at his peak is better than Taylor ever was over short bursts of a few legs, but not over long matches, tournaments, and years.

In his 2016 Premier League match against Michael Smith, when attempting his first dart at a double in the 7th leg, MvG was averaging 134. Taylor never got close to this in 30 years as a professional. I think his best burst may have been at the World Championship against Shayne Burgess in 2002, where he cleaned up sets 3, 4 and 5 in 35, 39 and 35 darts respectively. This works out at an average of 124 over 9 legs.

But Taylor holds the top 4 tournament averages in PDC history and eight of the top 10. He also holds the top 2 annual averages in PDC history and 3 of the top 5. MvG's best tournament average is 107 in the 2016 Premier League. Taylor achieved four tournament averages over 108, including three in just 12 months between October 2008 and October 2009. This is in spite of the fact that dart boards are probably now slightly more generous than they were 10 years ago.

In the post match interviews, whenever MvG averages 107-110+ over short matches, he is usually buzzing and claims he played "phenomenal". Fair do's, but in the 2009 European championship, Taylor averaged over 111 across the entire tournament, with a lowest match average of 109. MvG has never approached this otherworldly level of consistent brillance, and even at his very best, over the course of a whole tournament he always has greater troughs than Taylor did between 2008 and 2010.
Last edited by a massive zebra on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malanax
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Malanax » Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:55 pm

a massive zebra wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:35 pm
Fair do's, but in the 2009 European championship, Taylor averaged over 111 across the entire tournament, with a lowest match average of 109. MvG has never approached this otherworldly level of consistent brillance, and even at his very best, over the course of a whole tournament he always has greater troughs than Taylor did between 2008 and 2010.
Wow thanks that was just around the time i was getting properly into darts and wasn't aware of that. just looked it up, incredible stats. 118.14 average in a 10-3 win over Gary Anderson in the QF!

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by thegentle » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:26 pm

Malanax wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:55 pm
a massive zebra wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:35 pm
Fair do's, but in the 2009 European championship, Taylor averaged over 111 across the entire tournament, with a lowest match average of 109. MvG has never approached this otherworldly level of consistent brillance, and even at his very best, over the course of a whole tournament he always has greater troughs than Taylor did between 2008 and 2010.
Wow thanks that was just around the time i was getting properly into darts and wasn't aware of that. just looked it up, incredible stats. 118.14 average in a 10-3 win over Gary Anderson in the QF!
Gary Anderson playing at the Euros!
'Orns

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:41 pm

Randall wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:32 pm
Taylor, Bristow and Lowe ill give you in terms of achievement.
Barney has only one "real" world title.
With all due respect, to rank Lowe over MvG is just silly IMO. Lowe won 5 majors in his entire career, MvG has already won over 30. Lowe consistently averaged in the late 80s and early 90s, MvG consistently averages over 100. Lowe was never the best player in the world, MvG has been the best for about 5 years. Even taking into account the tougher stapled boards Lowe played on and the higher number of majors available these days, MvG is easily the higher calibre darts player. If you took Lowe at his best against MvG over the last 5 years, MvG would win 90% of the matches IMO.

I wouldn't rank Bristow over MvG either, but at least there is a credible argument for it. Bristow has won more world titles and was definitely mentally tougher, but MvG's relative mental fragility would only come into play if the matches are close. I think Bristow would be comprehensively outscored, and MvG is usually fine on doubles when up against someone who cannot compete with his scoring. Bristow's scoring was fine in comparison to his peers, but it does not compare to the power scoring MvG has in his locker. I'm not just looking at averages here because of course the boards are easier these days. If you actually watch the old matches, a fair proportion of Bristow's single 20s missed the treble by quite a long way and wouldn't be in the treble on modern boards. MvG certainly achieves a more consistent grouping around the treble 20, and IMO in a typical match the relative mental toughness wouldn't come into play as MvG would often have several darts in hand over Bristow. MvG isn't as reliable as Taylor and I think Bristow would have it in him to beat MvG from time to time, but I still think MvG would win 70% of the matches.
Last edited by a massive zebra on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:47 pm

My top 10 would be something like this:

Taylor
MvG
Bristow
RvB
Anderson
Priestley
Lowe
Part
Wilson
Lewis

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Randall » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:48 pm

All fair points but for an all time great I still use longevity as a measure.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm

Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Randall » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 pm

PT13 wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm
Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
At times in the grand prix finals against part he was possibly even better?
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:05 pm

PT13 wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm
Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
After two sets he was averaging less than 105. The 115 average after five sets was mainly thanks to a 9 leg burst between the third and fifth sets where he averaged 124.

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