Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

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Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest dartsplayers list?

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Total votes: 71

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:09 pm

Randall wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 pm
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
At times in the grand prix finals against part he was possibly even better?
I think you refer to the 2002 final where he averaged in excess of 100 across 10 sets with a double to start. IIRC, there was also a spell in either this or the 2003 final (can't remember which), where he kept going off with 160.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Randall » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:13 pm

a massive zebra wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:09 pm
Randall wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 pm
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
At times in the grand prix finals against part he was possibly even better?
I think you refer to the 2002 final where he averaged in excess of 100 across 10 sets with a double to start. IIRC, there was also a spell in either this or the 2003 final (can't remember which), where he kept going off with 160.
Was absolutely crazy.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by sennafan24 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:26 pm

PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
David and Walton would have still beaten him.
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Randall » Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:47 pm

sennafan24 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:26 pm
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
David and Walton would have still beaten him.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:38 pm

Randall wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 pm
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
At times in the grand prix finals against part he was possibly even better?
Yes, especially as it was double start. Taylor dominated the early part of the 2002 final, going up 5-1 and then it became a brilliant match from both as Taylor won 7-3. In the 2003 final, it was 2-2 and looking like a very close final like their 2003 World Championship final, and then Taylor had a brilliant purple patch in the next 4 sets which left Part huffing and puffing. Taylor won 7-2 in the end.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:19 am

PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:38 pm
Randall wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 pm
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
At times in the grand prix finals against part he was possibly even better?
Yes, especially as it was double start. Taylor dominated the early part of the 2002 final, going up 5-1 and then it became a brilliant match from both as Taylor won 7-3. In the 2003 final, it was 2-2 and looking like a very close final like their 2003 World Championship final, and then Taylor had a brilliant purple patch in the next 4 sets which left Part huffing and puffing. Taylor won 7-2 in the end.
Which match was the one where he kept starting with 160? I can remember it happening but can't remember which year it was. Was simply incredible to watch. MvG at his best would have struggled to cope.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am

Randall wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:32 pm Barney has only one "real" world title.
This is a bit harsh, IMO. Yes, Taylor was the best player throughout the period Barney won his BDO titles. But in most sports with a unified field, the best player doesn't always win every year.

Barney won his BDO titles before the PDC had a monopoly on all the best players. You could argue that for the until the early to mid 2000s, the BDO actually had more strength in depth. The mediocre Dave Askew made two PDC world championship semi-finals. The absence of the likes of Barney, Hankey, King, Stompe, Adams, David and Wallace would have made his route to the semi-final significantly easier. Askew would have had no chance against Barney and would have been the underdog against most of the players mentioned above aswell. He would have been very lucky to make the quarter-finals in a unified field.

Barney won his BDO world titles in 1998, 1999, 2003 and 2005. I agree Taylor was easily the better player in the first two years, as he proved in the battle of the champions in 1999. So we can wipe two "real" world titles off Barney's resume.

However, in 2003 John Part won the PDC world championship. Barney has a dominant head to head record against Part, has won over 20 majors compared to Part's four, and I think most people would agree he is the better dart player of the two. So Barney would definitely have been favourite in a theoretical "2003 Battle of the Champions". In 2005, although Phil Taylor won the PDC world title, his performances were relatively mediocre by his own epic standards. I think most people who watched both tournaments would agree Barney played better in winning the BDO title than Taylor did in winning the PDC. Although Barney usually struggled against Taylor, he still beat him more often than almost everyone else ever. Given the form the two players showed in their 2005 world championships, I see no reason why Barney couldn't have beaten Taylor in a 2005 "Battle of the Champions".

So three world titles seems fair to me.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:53 am

a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:19 am
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:38 pm
Randall wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 pm
PT13 wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:28 pm Taylor against Burgess at the 2002 World Championship won the first 15 legs of the match, averaging 115.62, so that's exactly 13 darts per leg. By the end of the match, Taylor had won 6-1 in sets with a 111.21 average. Then Taylor crushed Part 6-0, crushed Askew 6-0, and crushed Manley 7-0. 10-time world champion, 8 in a row.
At times in the grand prix finals against part he was possibly even better?
Yes, especially as it was double start. Taylor dominated the early part of the 2002 final, going up 5-1 and then it became a brilliant match from both as Taylor won 7-3. In the 2003 final, it was 2-2 and looking like a very close final like their 2003 World Championship final, and then Taylor had a brilliant purple patch in the next 4 sets which left Part huffing and puffing. Taylor won 7-2 in the end.
Which match was the one where he kept starting with 160? I can remember it happening but can't remember which year it was. Was simply incredible to watch. MvG at his best would have struggled to cope.
Around sets 6-7 of the 2003 World Grand Prix final was when he kept going 160 all the time.
a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am
Randall wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:32 pm Barney has only one "real" world title.
This is a bit harsh, IMO. Yes, Taylor was the best player throughout the period Barney won his BDO titles. But in most sports with a unified field, the best player doesn't always win every year.

Barney won his BDO titles before the PDC had a monopoly on all the best players. You could argue that for the until the early to mid 2000s, the BDO actually had more strength in depth. The mediocre Dave Askew made two PDC world championship semi-finals. The absence of the likes of Barney, Hankey, King, Stompe, Adams, David and Wallace would have made his route to the semi-final significantly easier. Askew would have had no chance against Barney and would have been the underdog against most of the players mentioned above aswell. He would have been very lucky to make the quarter-finals in a unified field.
Dave Askew wasn't mediocre back then. He really tore Jamie Harvey apart in the 2001 quarter final.

But yes, I would say that up to late 2001 before the Skol Six defections that the BDO had better strength in depth, even though the PDC had most of the best players in the world. You could even argue the BDO's case here with strength in depth up to 2006 before Barney left for the PDC, but I think the PDC had the depth edge as well by 2002.

The BDO having greater strength in depth before 2002 was inevitable though considering the BDO's 1993-1997 sanctions on the WDC, and the need for the WDC to fund a legal court case to get those motions lifted. 1993-1997 was all about survival for the WDC as the BDO tried to financially ruin them.
a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 amBarney won his BDO world titles in 1998, 1999, 2003 and 2005. I agree Taylor was easily the better player in the first two years, as he proved in the battle of the champions in 1999. So we can wipe two "real" world titles off Barney's resume.

However, in 2003 John Part won the PDC world championship. Barney has a dominant head to head record against Part, has won over 20 majors compared to Part's four, and I think most people would agree he is the better dart player of the two. So Barney would definitely have been favourite in a theoretical "2003 Battle of the Champions".
In 2002 going into the 2003 World Championship, I have Part above anyone in the world except Taylor. Barney wasn't even the best in the BDO in 2002, as that was Tony David, and Mervyn King was probably second in the BDO that year. But yes in 2003 as the year went on, Barney started to dominate the BDO tour utterly and only failed at the World Masters really, missing a championship dart as Tony West beat him. Part's 2003 as a whole was mixed, as he won some floor events including another win over Taylor in the first floor event after the 2003 World Championship, and beat Taylor again in the Las Desert Classic semi final, but Part failed to win another TV event through 2003. Part suddenly became weaker against the field as 2003 went on, despite being Taylor's biggest threat in a direct match.

I'd have a 2003 showdown between Part and Barney as a toss up, but I think I'd back Part. People thought that Barney would beat Part in the 2006 Las Vegas Desert Classic final, but Part won 6-3 in sets.
a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 amIn 2005, although Phil Taylor won the PDC world title, his performances were relatively mediocre by his own epic standards. I think most people who watched both tournaments would agree Barney played better in winning the BDO title than Taylor did in winning the PDC. Although Barney usually struggled against Taylor, he still beat him more often than almost everyone else ever. Given the form the two players showed in their 2005 world championships, I see no reason why Barney couldn't have beaten Taylor in a 2005 "Battle of the Champions".

So three world titles seems fair to me.
Remember the 2005 Masters of Darts from February 2005? Taylor beat Barney 4-0 and 5-2 in sets, in the Netherlands. That was certainly the moment when Barney knew that if he was ever going to be the real best in the world then he'd have to switch to the PDC to face Taylor on a regular basis. Barney's poor form in the Dutch TV events in 2005, along with the vitriolic media reaction, caused him to fall out with his long-term manager Ad Schoofs, and teaming up with a new manager Ed van der Veer.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:54 am

PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:53 am Around sets 6-7 of the 2003 World Grand Prix final was when he kept going 160 all the time.
Thanks for the info. :)
PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am
Dave Askew wasn't mediocre back then. He really tore Jamie Harvey apart in the 2001 quarter final.
Yes he was. One match doesn't make a player. In the vast majority of Dave Askew's matches, even around that time, he averaged under 90. If this isn't mediocre, I don't know what is. In this career highlight, Dave Askew achieved a match average of 96. Barney achieved tournament averages of over 97 in every world championship between 2002 to 2005. So Askew's career peak was no better than Barney's typical performance level over several years.
PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am
But yes, I would say that up to late 2001 before the Skol Six defections that the BDO had better strength in depth, even though the PDC had most of the best players in the world. You could even argue the BDO's case here with strength in depth up to 2006 before Barney left for the PDC, but I think the PDC had the depth edge as well by 2002.

The BDO having greater strength in depth before 2002 was inevitable though considering the BDO's 1993-1997 sanctions on the WDC, and the need for the WDC to fund a legal court case to get those motions lifted. 1993-1997 was all about survival for the WDC as the BDO tried to financially ruin them.
Fair comment, I agree.
PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am I'd have a 2003 showdown between Part and Barney as a toss up, but I think I'd back Part. People thought that Barney would beat Part in the 2006 Las Vegas Desert Classic final, but Part won 6-3 in sets.
I like how you cherry pick one match that wasn't around the time we are discussing, and yet ignore the fact that Barney won 75% of all the other matches they ever played.
PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:59 am Remember the 2005 Masters of Darts from February 2005? Taylor beat Barney 4-0 and 5-2 in sets, in the Netherlands. That was certainly the moment when Barney knew that if he was ever going to be the real best in the world then he'd have to switch to the PDC to face Taylor on a regular basis. Barney's poor form in the Dutch TV events in 2005, along with the vitriolic media reaction, caused him to fall out with his long-term manager Ad Schoofs, and teaming up with a new manager Ed van der Veer.
Fair points, but did you actually watch the 2005 world championships? I think it is fairly clear that Taylor was vulnerable in the 2005 PDC world championship and Barney played better than Taylor in the BDO version that year. Taylor had to some extent rediscovered his mojo by the time of the Masters of Darts.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by PT13 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:45 am

a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:54 amYes he was. One match doesn't make a player. In the vast majority of Dave Askew's matches, even around that time, he averaged under 90. If this isn't mediocre, I don't know what is. In this career highlight, Dave Askew achieved a match average of 96. Barney achieved tournament averages of over 97 in every world championship between 2002 to 2005. So Askew's career peak was no better than Barney's typical performance level over several years.
A lot of it was missed doubles.
a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:54 amI like how you cherry pick one match that wasn't around the time we are discussing, and yet ignore the fact that Barney won 75% of all the other matches they ever played.
It was a long sets format, like a World Championship semi final of the time. Barney was favoured, and Part won 6-3. A 2003 showdown would have been of a similar format, most likely.
a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:54 amFair points, but did you actually watch the 2005 world championships? I think it is fairly clear that Taylor was vulnerable in the 2005 PDC world championship and Barney played better than Taylor in the BDO version that year.
Some people did say that at the time.
a massive zebra wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:54 amTaylor had to some extent rediscovered his mojo by the time of in the Masters of Darts.
In just 1 month? The 2005 Masters of Darts tournament was hyped up a lot not only because it was the big PDC vs. BDO players in a tournament for the first time, but because of Taylor vs. Barney due to their closely matched form from their 2005 World Championships. To be fair to the BDO players, they largely did the business in the tournament, although Taylor was dominant. Lloyd and Mardle were particularly disappointing for the PDC at that event, beaten in all 4 of their matches against BDO players (Barney, Fordham, David, Stompe), and Mardle had his infamous expletive ridden post-match rants live on Dutch TV.

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by a massive zebra » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:37 am

PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:45 am A lot of it was missed doubles.
That may well be true, but in the words of Bobby George, "trebles for show, doubles for dough".
PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:45 amIt was a long sets format, like a World Championship semi final of the time. Barney was favoured, and Part won 6-3. A 2003 showdown would have been of a similar format, most likely.
Barney was favoured because he was a better player than Part and usually beat him. This was the exception rather than the rule.
PT13 wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:45 amLloyd and Mardle were particularly disappointing for the PDC at that event, beaten in all 4 of their matches against BDO players (Barney, Fordham, David, Stompe), and Mardle had his infamous expletive ridden post-match rants live on Dutch TV.
You mean this?



:p

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Rogg » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:37 pm

On the longevity point, he has now won long-course TV titles a decade apart. 2012 Grand Prix ---> 2022 Matchplay.

You can say he's been winning TV titles across 16 years but not quite sure where we stand on the 2006 BDO Masters where his foetus ruined Wolfie.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Rogg » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:39 pm

Just for curiosity, did they even have week-long tournaments back in the day? Apart from the Embassy.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by The Thorn » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:20 pm

We all know Adams' career in the BDO was way more illustrious than MVG's no matter how Rogg is trying to bend the facts
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by The Ginge Reaper » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:31 pm

Thats like saying Bolton Wanderers have been more successful in the 2nd tier of English football in the last 30 years than Manchester United have tbf.
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by The Thorn » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:33 pm

The Ginge Reaper wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:31 pm Thats like saying Bolton Wanderers have been more successful in the 2nd tier of English football in the last 30 years than Manchester United have tbf.
Whoosh
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by The Ginge Reaper » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:34 pm

Absolutely not.
Big changes on the way ! We've heard it before but it's different this time !!!! , I believe Bdo gonna grow x

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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by The Thorn » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:37 pm

:D
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Randall » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:58 pm

Still 3rd
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Re: Where do you rank MVG now on the all time greatest list?

Post by Ross, Bob » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:40 pm

Randall wrote:Still 3rd
Behind Barney and?
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