Boxing

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HalloweenJack
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Re: Boxing

Post by HalloweenJack » Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:00 pm

Tommo wrote:A prime Mike Tyson would beat the lot of them one after another in his dinner hour, while he was eating it.
Vastly overrated fighter that doesn’t get in many top 10 all time heavyweight lists. He never overcame adversity in any fight. Fought in a weakish era. He could never have handled a prime Holmes imo or Prime Lewis after him. Holyfield would have his number. Riddick Bowe could have beaten him. Vitali Klitschko would have beaten him. I think Usyk and Fury both beat him. Previous to him other than Holmes, Ali, Foreman, Liston beat him and it’s a pick ‘em with him and Smoking Joe.
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Re: Boxing

Post by HalloweenJack » Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:00 pm

sennafan24 wrote:I'd also pick 88-90 Tyson over the current crop.
Fury would smother him and Usyk too clever for him imo.
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Re: Boxing

Post by TheMalteseDart » Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:30 pm

You can say he never overcame adversity / weak era etc but in that period where he was knocking everyone out in 30 seconds where’s the evidence that there was a weakness to his game that meant he wouldn’t have knocked out a Vitali or Holyfield? Tyson walking down Usyk and knocking him out in a round or 2 wouldn’t surprise me because he was just an absolute killer
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Re: Boxing

Post by The Thorn » Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:09 pm

HJ talking his usual shite lol, don't bite
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Boxing

Post by HalloweenJack » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:07 pm

TheMalteseDart wrote:You can say he never overcame adversity / weak era etc but in that period where he was knocking everyone out in 30 seconds where’s the evidence that there was a weakness to his game that meant he wouldn’t have knocked out a Vitali or Holyfield? Tyson walking down Usyk and knocking him out in a round or 2 wouldn’t surprise me because he was just an absolute killer
Tyson won many fights by intimidation. Not one of the fighters I mentioned would have been intimidated by him. Not many boxing experts pick Tyson in an all time top 10 list. Tyson was a great mid range combination puncher. Holyfield and Bowe and Frazier would beat him in the inside. Foreman would have bullied him ( Tyson supposedly wanted no part of the 90s version of Foreman) I’m talking about peak 70s Foreman. Usyk would be too quick for Tyson imo. The others would keep him at range. Lewis v Tyson was when both were past their prime, but that fight is exactly how many would see it happening whenever they fight. Lewis was paid step aside money so Tyson didn’t fight him.
A lot of ( mainly casual) boxing fans get sucked in by Tysons highlight reel. He also didn’t blast everyone out early, Tucker had his moments and he shattered his hand very early on in that fight. Bonecrusher came to frustrate and Tyson couldn’t land anything clean on him.

Mike Tyson’s best career wins
Spinks ( a blown up light heavyweight)
Holmes ( well past his prime and was given only a few weeks preparation after not fighting for around 2 years)
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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:19 pm

HalloweenJack wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:00 pm
sennafan24 wrote:I'd also pick 88-90 Tyson over the current crop.
Fury would smother him and Usyk too clever for him imo.
Tyson is a horrible match up for Usyk.

If Wilder can have Fury on the verge of a stoppage twice then it's only logical that prime Tyson could blow him away in a few rounds. Fury's best chance would be too smother him in the clinch in the early rounds and capitalise in the later rounds when Tyson tired out. But I would still pick Tyson (Mike)
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by HalloweenJack » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:34 pm

sennafan24 wrote:
HalloweenJack wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:00 pm
sennafan24 wrote:I'd also pick 88-90 Tyson over the current crop.
Fury would smother him and Usyk too clever for him imo.
Tyson is a horrible match up for Usyk.

If Wilder can have Fury on the verge of a stoppage twice then it's only logical that prime Tyson could blow him away in a few rounds. Fury's best chance would be too smother him in the clinch in the early rounds and capitalise in the later rounds when Tyson tired out. But I would still pick Tyson (Mike)
Tyson ( Mike) generally knocked people out with combinations whereas Wilder is mainly a one hitter quitter ( arguably the best ever at this) Fury first get hit with many shots repeatedly. I agree the way Fury would beat Tyson is to smother, clinch, foul then after the first 6 rounds he would be favourite.
Like any boxing debate like this, I guess we will never know, but they are good discussions to have.
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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:45 pm

=HalloweenJack post_id=1309738 time=1661173643 user_id=2242 Tyson won many fights by intimidation. Not one of the fighters I mentioned would have been intimidated by him. Not many boxing experts pick Tyson in an all time top 10 list. Tyson was a great mid range combination puncher. Holyfield and Bowe and Frazier would beat him in the inside. Foreman would have bullied him ( Tyson supposedly wanted no part of the 90s version of Foreman) I’m talking about peak 70s Foreman. Usyk would be too quick for Tyson imo. The others would keep him at range. Lewis v Tyson was when both were past their prime, but that fight is exactly how many would see it happening whenever they fight. Lewis was paid step aside money so Tyson didn’t fight him. A lot of ( mainly casual) boxing fans get sucked in by Tysons highlight reel. He also didn’t blast everyone out early, Tucker had his moments and he shattered his hand very early on in that fight. Bonecrusher came to frustrate and Tyson couldn’t land anything clean on him. Mike Tyson’s best career wins Spinks ( a blown up light heavyweight) Holmes ( well past his prime and was given only a few weeks preparation after not fighting for around 2 years)
Firstly, a lot of experts do place Tyson in the top 10 heavyweights of all-time. Just not in the top 5.

88-90 Tyson was a very good pressure boxer. He'd come forward with constant head movement, draw out his opponent's jab, and slip inside it and land counters. He was also lethal on the inside, even if he was vulnerable to the clinch. His head movement diminished after he left Rooney and he was never quite the same boxer again.

Still, his record is better than you make out. Spinks, although a blown-up cruiserweight, is one of the most underrated boxers in recent memory. Holmes, although old, looked switched on against Tyson and smartly used the clinch to smother him. However, Tyson was able to take away Holmes's jab, by jabbing him with. This not only pushed Holmes back, but set up Tyson's right hand, which he eventually used to stop Larry. It's also not like Tubbs, Tucker and Thomas were bums when Tyson beat them.

Yes, he didn't blast everyone away at his peak, but it's also not like other HW greats didn't look vulnerable during their peaks. Lewis got stopped by Rahman, Foreman's training methods were terrible which contributed to his lack of stamina and his loss to Young, Ali was buzzed by Henry Cooper's left hook when he was at his slickest, Fury looked ordinary against Cunningham, Holmes was almost stopped by Shavers, the list could go on.

Some of those I would pick to beat Tyson prime vs prime (Lewis, Foreman, Ali), other I would pick Mike to beat (Fury, Holmes), but Mike was certainly in their league prime for prime, even if his prime was relatively short for the reason I mentioned above.
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by Randall » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:51 pm

85-87 tyson is as good as anyone I've seen
An absolute terror
His prime was just over very soon
He stops usyk easily for me
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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:16 pm

Randall wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:51 pm 85-87 tyson is as good as anyone I've seen An absolute terror His prime was just over very soon He stops usyk easily for me
After checking Tyson career timeline, I'd say 87-90 was his prime.

And aye agreed, I have little time for Tyson as a person and adore Usyk, but I can't see Usyk beating prime Iron Mike.
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:17 pm

A song for HJ:

HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by Randall » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:32 pm

Tyson was well past his best by 1990
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Re: Boxing

Post by The Thorn » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:37 pm

I think it is a huge surprise that HJ as a Tory voter keeps downplaying Mike Tyson's achievements who is a person of colour.
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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:38 pm

Randall wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:32 pm Tyson was well past his best by 1990
The chinks in his armour started to show in the first Bruno bout in February of 89. That was his first bout without Rooney.

So aye, you might be right.
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by Randall » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:41 pm

Losing cus, then Rooney
Had nobody to keep him on the right path or be any help in the corner.
Under rich giachetti he looked far better against ruddock but post jail he wasn't 50% of what he was.
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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:45 pm

Randall wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:41 pm Losing cus, then Rooney Had nobody to keep him on the right path or be any help in the corner. Under rich giachetti he looked far better against ruddock but post jail he wasn't 50% of what he was.
Agreed.
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by Randall » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:55 pm

Bert Cooper all but knocked holyfield over circa 1992
What tysons hand speed and power would have reduced him to we can only speculate.
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Re: Boxing

Post by ILAD » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:33 pm

You all have zero knowledge about boxing, DBG, he is the man.

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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:33 pm

Also, part of Tyson's blossoming between in 1987 was learning to deal with clinchers.

From Boxerec:

"Tucker used the sort of tactics that have frustrated Iron Mike in previous bouts - against James (Bonecrusher) Smith last March and for a few rounds against Pinklon Thomas in May. But Tyson showed patience tonight, using his jab to establish his offense more than he had in the past when opponents grabbed and clinched excessively."

Of course, Tyson still had issues with clinchers, as was the case in the Holmes bout, but he did improve at dealing with them after the Smith bout that HJ keeps harping on about.
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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Re: Boxing

Post by sennafan24 » Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:33 pm

ILAD wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:33 pm You all have zero knowledge about boxing, DBG, he is the man.
"Bionic arm"
HalloweenJack wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Randall wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:05 pm Dulla has never faced anything like Taylor in top gear.
Maybe he could have dragged Taylor down, we will never know.

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